Tom, As you said, opinions vary. Out of curiosity I picked up Amazing yesterday and read it last night, and while Spidey isn't my cup of tea, and some things have been changed that left me wanting to know more, I did feel that it was well a written book.

I've had a couple of conversations with you, and while we might have disagreed on some points, you have been nothing but honest and civil towards me. (and I hope you felt the same towards me) No name calling. No profanity. That you took the time out of your busy day to engage in a one on one conversation with me, one out of thousands of fans, I very much appreciate.

And, by the way, after taking your advice, I am continuing to read the books in question and am glad that I have not dropped them.

Tom Reed

Posted by Tom Reed on 2008-01-10 10:13:28
Perspective/Emotions
Obviously a reader's perspective and the emotions that are drawn out from reading each piece will reflect how they react to it and their "objective" judgement of it. In other words, yeah, Avengers sucks, Civil War was a waste, and Spider-Man's down the tubes...

But tomorrow's still a brand new day.

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

On the more personal tip: Though I'm naturally pessimistic about people, it's very possible that you - Tom - might just actually be honest and wanting to express your opinions about things you like or don't without being pulled like a puppet by the strings of sales.

Maybe you should prove it by completely trashing various books that you can't stand that come from Marvel!

Either that or just tell us to trust you and continue to keep your job...

Posted by PseudoSherlock on 2008-01-10 10:18:43
mistake
Tom,
Why did you respond to this idiocy? You gave him the attention he wanted. You fed the cat, and it's not going to leave.


Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2008-01-10 10:55:42
Why bother?
The majority of people who follow this blog seem (from their posts) to be fairly reasonable people. So when someone challenges you to a debate and promptly follows it up with the phrase "blonde latino chick" then questions your honesty it has to be nearly impossible for most of us to take him seriously.

I, personally, believe your time would be much better spent showing us some more Adriana Melo pages from Ms. Marvel. :)

Posted by friskydingo on 2008-01-10 11:00:09
Yeah about the hooker thing though, I'm very serious about what I'm about to say. I think it would be wonderful if a lot of you editors at Marvel should start putting a more critical eye into effect concerning artist's portrayals of females. Not so much about controling sluttiness, but on a whole I think that some comic artists need to take a bit more consideration into the overall image of their characters. Some of the fashions and hair styles that some characters have are atrocously outdated or generic and while this may be silly, this one very large turn-off when viewing a comic--in fact I'm almost positive it's one of the reasons why teenage girls perfer manga over the regular stuff. Seeing realistically rendered characters in sweats is visually off-putting and while I know all comic artists don't specialis in fashion design you'd think they could at least pay attnetion to how people--women in particular--look whenever they go out; assuming they get out at all. I know it sounds irrelevant, but it's just so dificult to believe in some of the character driven stuff when the dialogue is so real but the people's appearances or so literally out of this world. You would never get this in a tv show. And the slutiness too. I'm not saying the women in comics shouldn't look hot. Heck, they can still even dress provocatively so long as their fashionably provocative. Some of them seriously do look like hookers and it just clashes with the charatcerization that comes across through the writer's dialogue. It's a small fribolous thing, but a thing, I believe, where editors can (and should) be able to call up the artist and say "Hey, could you maybe freshen her up a little bit and maybe make her wardrobe a bit more realistic--here, go to these fashion magazine websites/blogs links and check out some of the stuff and see what you like. Thanks." I really am serious about that. No joke. Thanks :/

Posted by underscore on 2008-01-10 11:12:57
GAAAAH
So many spelling mistakes. The type size is too small :(

Posted by underscore on 2008-01-10 11:15:13
Clothes
Underscore wrote: "You would never get this in a tv show."

I can see what you mean about clothes. There are some artists who draw what was in fashion when they were teenagers for their entire career. There are some who draw the same outfits and hair styles over and over. The art would definitely benefit from the artists keeping up on current styles.

However, I think your comparison to TV shows actually highlights why this is a difficult thing. TV shows have people whose *full time job* is clothes. And people whose full time job is hair and make-up. The artist on a comic book does the clothing, the hair, the direction of the actors, the cinematography, sets, props, and many other jobs.

So while it's always better with more realistic clothes, I think it's important to remember that TV shows have literally dozens of people learning about and doing the things that only a handful of people do in making a comic.

Posted by CodeGuy on 2008-01-10 12:33:14
"I kinda liked the latino blonde chick that Harry was dating, even though she looked like a hooker because the skin tone and blonde hair combo!"

This sounds a lot like that John Byrne comment

Posted by Rain on 2008-01-10 12:38:42
The clothes (or lack thereof) make the woman?
Tom,

You already know I respect you and your work. So I am not asking for public debate, nor for attention. I'd like to share an extended comment as food for thought. This flows from some things mentioned by underscore (above).

Would it be possible for artists and editors to agree on portraying women in the MU as more "physically diverse"? By that I mean, do all the ladies have to have the same (approximate) size breasts and buttocks? I understand that "super-men" and "super-women" are going to appear "strong" and "beautiful". But should women power-houses like the She-Hulk, as an example, be portrayed as they are? I am of the opinion that a well trained fighting woman would be smaller in the chest, perhaps even flat chested. A woman's body would be more lean and toned down than the gals we see with ample bosoms and bottoms. Consider how many high energy martial arts matriarchs exist in the MU. Black Widow, Elektra, Sharon Carter, the Black Cat, Moon Dragon (pre-Conquest), Mantis, and probably a lot more! As much energy as these gals burn while fighting, one would reason that they would be, at the very least, a tad slimmer than the are! In other words, should all of these women have the same (approximate) cup size? And should all these ladies stand around with their backs arched so that their rack and backside are protruding in an exaggerated manner? At times, it just looks ridiculous! And related to underscore, could the ladies be dressed in casual attire that is not painted on? Other apparel, slacks, dresses, frilly blouses, etc conjure both feminine beauty and sex appeal. Obviously Jen Walters dresses nicely at her law firm, and some of the other gals in the MU do the same. But I think this aspect (more clothing) on Marvel's female characters needs greater (dare I say it?) exposure! By contrast, some of the MU ladies belong in a pornographic magazine, rather than a comic book. Yes, it is very clear that the sensual feminine form sells in all "picture" industries. But it would be nice to have some variety. And please, put some more clothes on Gamora in Nova. She's a great character with a great personality! Certainly her licentiousness fits in with being the most dangerous woman in the universe. But her "lack of apparrel" is over the top! Gamora can be just as "hot" and feminine, by wearing "more clothing" instead of just ribbon from a birthday (suit) present ! I hope that my terminology has been gracious without being offensive.

Thanks for your thoughtful consideration ! Keep up the good work!

Monday Morning Lunatic !

Posted by Mon Morn Lunatic on 2008-01-10 13:31:06
>This sounds a lot like that John Byrne comment

Because Dusty is an infamous Byrne Board member who got banned (I think) from Newsarama for his constant criticism of anyone who isn't John Byrne - in particular his vile hateful rants against Warren Ellis, Brian Bendis and Ed Brubaker. I eventually had enough and attacked him, and he ran crying to the mods, which led to myself getting banned from Newsarama. He likes NONE of Marvel's current output, and I'm staggered to see he's allowed post here - considering he's recently attacked Ellis, Bendis, and now Slott.

Posted by Dave James on 2008-01-10 13:39:55
OwNED!

Posted by macwagen on 2008-01-10 14:14:27
bad post to respond to sir.
Why do you choose to respond to the worst of all the comments left on the previous blog entry? Not any of the more reasoned arguments, that ONE message you chose is not representitive of our oppionions. MOST of us fans KNOW that BND is a subjectively,objectively, poor story is due to being built on a bad premise with dangling plot threads left. but you dont address those issues. and for the record I love diassasembeled, CW, The Other and WWH. Im laughed at on the boards for liking the 90's Venom mini's so I'm obviously open minded.

Anyway I hope you read this and take it into account even if you dont have time to reply to the million people who will post (many more articulately then me) individually.

Cant we all just agree buy the GOOD books as most marvel series ATM are and let sales decide this storylines fate.

Keep up the great work Tom,

Concernedly, User: TobyS


Posted by tobys on 2008-01-10 15:46:38
bnd
i have been a faithful asm reader since 1976, i cannot believe that the powers at work from marvel would compromise the integrity of my favorite comic character like this!! this is the equivalent of captain america making a deal with the devil to vanquish the red skull. i am married w/ 4 kids, and i do not live in my "mom's basement " and this is the only time i have ever posted a thing on marvel's web-site. i will not buy another marvel comic due to your condescnding attitudes toward the customers of your book. i think you folks at marvel have forgotten that we as readers are customers and we can and will choose not to buy marvel comics. you guys could use a lesson in customer service of course at the rate you appear to be going there may not be many customers left to see the end of your bnd storyline. thanks for the good times but i am insulted by your attitude toward me as a consumer of your product. you can't shove something down our throats and expect us to spend our hard earned money to buy it just because it's something you at marvel like to write about. we that work in different careers don't have the luxury of doing things we LIKE to do. we do what our jobs stipulate that we have to do. good luck and i am sorry but you have just a loyal reader and customer.

Posted by y2jr on 2008-01-10 16:07:31
typos
sorry for the typos but i am upset, the ending was supposed to read that you have just lost a loyal reader and customer.

Posted by y2jr on 2008-01-10 16:10:32
Clone Saga Mark III - Revenge of the Clone Sa
Tom, I'd like your opinions on this;

"Incidentally, much the same point could be made about "One More Day." The premise - Mephisto rewrites history to separate Spider-Man and Mary Jane - is just fine, as the opening of a story where they overcome the odds and are brought together again despite everything in their path. But Quesada is going out of his way to indicate that that's not the plan; it's just another magic wand to reverse continuity. That doesn't work, for exactly the same reasons. For that matter, the same error of reasoning led to the Spider-Clone saga, in which an utterly ludicrous device was adopted in order to unwind continuity, in the woefully optimistic belief that the story could then move on with this new status quo. Nobody learns.

Or maybe they do. It's entirely possible that Quesada is bluffing about "One More Day" being permanent, and that Marvel intentionally delayed for a year on delivering the follow-up to M-Day for the same reasons. But in both cases, that would be a foolish strategy. If people assumed "One More Day" was a long-term storyline, rather than a permanent change, they'd probably like it a lot more. Why go out of your way to give the impression that you don't have a clue?"

Posted by deworde on 2008-01-10 18:08:30
http://www.thexaxis.com/uncannyxmen/2007.htm

Posted by deworde on 2008-01-10 18:08:44
Personally, this quote pretty much sums up how I feel (the original point was about M-Day). I can see how this idea might make a great *finite* storyline.
But continuity scrubbing seems to alienate long-term fans, and does nothing much to attract new fans; nothing that simply letting Wacker, Slott, McNiven et al just go to work with the brief "Continuity to a minimum, guys".
I can see that it might seem the only solution to "Unmasked", but it seems to combine the worst of "Reset-To-Zero" and "Deus Ex Machina" ("Diabolus Ex Machina, perhaps), and it doesn't seem to allow you to tell any stories you couldn't have told *anyway* with much less damage to the readership.
If the stories really are good; I'll probably pick up the comic. But it's going to be hard to overlook the massive chunk of "Fake Continuity"; e.g. "I don't remember Harry getting together with the Black Cat... oh, it's OMD again."

Posted by deworde on 2008-01-10 18:20:54
http://www.thexaxis.com/uncannyxmen/2007.htm

Posted by deworde on 2008-01-10 18:27:50
A few things to say
I've been reading Spider-Man comics since the mid-nineties -- when I was a teen girl -- so the marriage has always been the proper status quo for me. I'll miss it while it's gone and wish it a safe and speedy return. I think the retcon was wholly unnecessary, ill conceived, problematic continuity-wise, not terribly admirable, and a little insulting. I really don't blame people for being angry.

The return of Harry and the de-amped-up Spider-powers bother me, because they have nothing to do with the secret identity or marriage directly. Are they some sort of add-on clause that no one mentioned? I suppose all will be revealed in time, but is this magical mass amnesia, or an actual change in the past? There are other problems but you've heard them all.

That said, Brand New Day was not half as bad as I thought it would be. The art is lovely, everyone seems to be in character, no one seems to have been de-aged. Peter at least *was* still a teacher, and his living arrangements are apparently temporary. I guess I'll keep reading for now, if only to keep the friends who've dropped it (three of them) up to speed on what's been going on. I can't judge it on one issue, but so far, so good. Aunt May's backup was pretty darn cheesy though.

The comic shop guys say sales are good but the customers are angrier than they've ever been. Some are buying on momentum, some are jumping on, some are watching the train wreck, and some (like me) are actually hoping it'll be decent. Well, no surprise. Sales are what, around 140k copies? Even if it drops by 50% it's still doing OK. I don't think "I'm dropping this book!" has worked since the Clone Saga, and maybe not even then.

I really thought about dropping it, but eh, I've lived through worse. Much, much worse.

Oh, by the way. I can has Clone Saga Omnibuses? Omnibi?

Posted by aurata on 2008-01-10 18:43:13
Score!
Tom, my apologies for calling you out in such a vile manner. My mistake, but you are always so well spoken and articulate, which is why your blog is my favorite place on the web, so when I saw your blog entry start with stroking us as being "intelligent", and then proceed to not articulate anything at all about why you felt so passionate to support the issue and get us behind it, I just assumed it was spin and damage control. I figured you were doing what you have to do, regardless of what your feelings on the issue were. I didn't think that made you a bad guy. I value your opinion, and really wanted to know what the heck thought was so great, and why you were trying to brush OMD's stench, which is all over BND (how could it NOT be?) under the rug like you were. It really looks like both you and Wacker are trying hard to distance everybody from OMD desperately, but I could be wrong about that, too. Again, my apologies. Hey, you said you wanted hits, but I'm sorry for hitting below the belt, and it won't happen again.

I just try to call it like I see it, because that's how I prefer to be judged in my own profession, and I can't muster up a whole lot of respect for the types like bigdaddyhub2, who just smooch the booty of you guys from one end of the net to the other. How serious can anybody really take such a predictable person as that, when all they do is shower you with accolades, and try to villianize anybody who doesn't like something?

A quick comment to Dave James (who I don't even know, and NEVER went crying to any mods about you... Who are you again?) I DO NOT belong to John Byrne's board, and I definitely am not INFAMOUS for being a Byrne board member. You are the type of overly sensitive comic fan with a warped imagination, because I have consistantly praised Ed Brubaker and Dan Slott, and support most everything that they write. I also suggest that you read Tom's blog about Bendis. I have the first post, and you and everybody else can watch me bashing away at him. I don't feel the need to suck up 24/7, and if I don't like something that I'm invested in, I don't care if it's Ed Brubaker who wrote it and Steve Epting who drew it (my 2 favs), I'll say it sucked. And since I HATE all Marvel, according to you, I figured I'd give you my pull list in order of how I like the books, so the next time, you'll be a little more educated!

1. Captain America (I hate Brubaker!!!)
2. Thor
3. Mighty Avengers (You suck, Bendis!!!)
4. Daredevil (Brubaker MUST be getting writing help...)
5. She-Hulk (Can't believe Dan Slott hooked me in the first place)
6. Thunderbolts (Ellis is overrated, but not on this!)
7. Hulk
8. Avengers: Initiative (Damn your soul to hell, Dan Slott!!!)
9. X-Factor
10. Iron-Man
11. Fantastic Four (I honestly can't stomach Millar, yet can't wait)
12. The Twelve
13. New Avengers (not my favorite, but I support Bendis out of hatred!!! Just ask Dave James!!!)
14. Uncanny X-Men (Brubaker blows!)
15. Ultimate Spider-Man (I hate Bendis. Quit the business already)
16. Captain Marvel
17. Exiles
18. Astonishing X-Men
19. Onslaught Reborn
20. The Order
21. Amazing Spider-Man (booooooo......)
22. Immortal Iron-Fist (not a big fan of the character, but there's a certain writer that I loathe who writes it, so I buy it...)
23. Incredible Herc
24. Captain America: The Chosen

I HATE MARVEL COMICS, HATE 'EM, I TELL YA!!!

Tom, keep up the great work at your blog and at Marvel. From one old school comic lover to another, having you at Marvel makes it feel like the rest of us really do have somebody in our corner!

Posted by Dusty. on 2008-01-10 19:36:17
Oh, and the blonde latino hooker
That comment was purposely said in jest, as I was kinda making fun of Byrne's much overblown comments about Jessica Alba. I just hope he doesn't read what I said, because then I'll never get an invite to Byrne manor.

I can't be the only person who immediately thought of his comments when seeing that character, and who knows, that might be the very reason she was conceived in the first place.

Posted by Dusty. on 2008-01-10 19:46:45
Ouch!
Iron Man's a bad guy. Cap is dead. The heroes are either zombies are at each others' throats. And now over 20 years of continuity is gone as Marvel ends a great marriage, I assume to make it easier on the writers to rehash old plots with the single Peter Parker. Married characters must be more difficult to write. Don't forget to make Aunt May feeble and senile again, since Marvel is moving backwards. I hope someone is still buying your comics because I've given up.

It must hurt to keep shooting yourselves in the foot. Ouch!

Posted by rfarrell on 2008-01-10 20:23:21
The Flawed Premise
Mr. Brevoort, the argument you made wasn’t aimed at critics or people who expect a storyline to bear some resemblance to what they’d read in a prose story. It was aimed at people who respond mainly to what they see their favorite character do in the pages of an issue, without practically any regard for the plot, characterization, or theme. Such a reader might as well be an eight-year-old watching a cartoon on “Cartoon Network,” entranced by the colorful, if cheaply done, animated figures.

The contents of AS-M #546 wouldn’t exist if not for the contents of AS-M #545, which have been roundly deplored by online (commercial Web site) reviewers as well as fans. The connection between the two issues is unbreakable and leads to the plot of AS-M #546 being fatally flawed because the premise is invalid, unless one wants to suppose that “One More Day” occurred in an alternate timeline.

It’s not surprising that some readers would respond enthusiastically to AS-M #546 and ignore the problems with the premise and whatever other problems might exist with the story, because their attachment to the character overrides any reservations they might have about the material. They just want to see their hero in action. Period.

It’s natural for Marvel to take advantage of that reader psychology; probably any commercial publisher would. You have an obligation, though, to explain why AS-M #545 worked as a story, and, if the story didn’t work, why AS-M #546 was written as it was. Ignoring a problem with a story’s premise simply because individual scenes might look good obviously isn’t something an editor should do.

SRS


Posted by Steven R. Stahl on 2008-01-10 22:47:35
Well, neither here nor there, but I haven't read Spider-man in a long time. I picked up Amazing and liked it A LOT. I'm waiting to see how the McNiven/Slott arc plays out before deciding to keep it, but it was just FUN.

Posted by jonwes on 2008-01-10 22:56:39
Too old for this
OMD has left me feeling so betrayed. I took a very long hiatus from comics. I read nothing but Marvel from the early 1980s until the early 1990s. A combination of terrible writing and terrible marketing drove me away. I came back on a lark because of the Marvel Zombies run. Spider-man and zombies are two of my favorite things. Then I picked up the Civil War run. I was so happy to see the characters I grew up with were all grown up themselves, dealing with grown up issues. The politics, the in-fighting, the "adult" themes. I convinced friends to go back to comics, to see that they had matured. And I was particularly happy to see that Peter Parker had grown into a man. Married, detached from Aunt May's apron, moving away from that "Aw, shucks" 1960s nonsense that has always seemed to follow him.
Then came OMD. Then came BND. I'm too old for double dates with Flash or Harry again. I'm too old for living at home with my aunt. I'm too old for mooching off friends, making deals with the devil or being unable to accept that sometimes our older loved ones just die. Maybe I'm just too old for comics. Then again, maybe it's not me you're writing for anyway.

Posted by cisco255 on 2008-01-10 23:12:46
Response to critism
Part of me feels like saying "Suck it up. Overblown responses from fans should be expected when working at a comic company." but the other side understands that you probably get a lot of flack for things a lot less severe than tinkering with Spider-Man's history, and not being taken for my word is one of my pet peeves too.
That said, try not to let it get to you again. For every one that doesn't like you or the job that you and Marvel are doing, there are about ten of us that do.

Posted by doncorswhazie on 2008-01-10 23:32:15
Blonde Latino Hookers...
You boys make that sound like... a bad thing.

Actually, they're quite delicious with some fava beans and a fine chiante.... supsupsupsupsupsupsup....

Posted by mrsentinel on 2008-01-10 23:33:36
Peter can't help but age
Hiya Tom.

I'm going to make it a point to pick up ASM 546 tomorrow, at the local comic shop here in Albany. (Without a doubt, the BEST little shop I've seen since, well, ever.) I think you and everyone at Marvel knows that you'e got a big lift to convince the readership to stay, but I think you deserve that chance.

What I hope you and your co-workers will do, for the sake of an American Icon, is to realize that a franchise character has to age or die an early death. Marvel doesn't have to have continuity-breaking drama because their characters do age. Peter is not in high school anymore. He's an adult. A teacher. And a husband.

Let's be realistic for a moment. This Peter Parker will not be a regular comic character in 2308. A kid would laugh at reading a story thought up two centuries before he was born, and without kids starting to read there won't be any adults who grew up reading. Spider-man will be literature, taught in schools and reimagined by storytellers of holotheatre or shadow-puppetry (depending on if WWIII happens or not.)

Yes, Peter's going to be the immortal incarnation of "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility," but the deal with Mephisto in One More Day, if handled as a way forward and not a cheat to turn back the clock, could let Peter and Mary Jane Parker be the immortal incarnation of something just as important: "Love Conquers All."

Posted by Planesdragon on 2008-01-11 01:49:25
Brand New Day
I've been a Spider-Man fan for over twenty years now. In fact, up to the moment that mister Quesada started his OMD nonsense, I was pretty much a Pollyanna in regards to Spidey. I've always tried to look for the good in almost anything Spider-Man related.

I've been vocal about likeing JMS' run, I liked Ben Reilly (as Peter's brother, though not as Spider-Man), I loved little May Parker and felt she should have stayed in the comics. I've even sounded positive on Sins Past and several parts of Howard Mackie's run, mostly cause I like Randy Robertson as a character...

But... One More Day sucked. It sucked bad, no worse than that, it trashed Spider-Man and is the closest thing Marvel has ever come to ruining the character of Peter Parker.

So yes, I unsubscribed from Amazing Spider-Man.

Now I did read the issue of BND in my shop, and have looked at the previews, I even read the interviews in the hope that maybe some part of them might get me over the part that mister Quesada is trying to force his own personal opinion on the readers.

I felt the interviews were insulting, the character posed in BND as Spider-Man is nothing at all like the Peter Parker I've been reading about since I picked up my first Spidey book and the character that is in the comics is unlikeable, a loser and a quitter. And that's not the kind of character I want to read about

To put it like Hercules did in Civil War,

"I know Peter Parker, I love Peter Parker, you are no Peter Parker."

Can't they get that Skrull posing as Peter out of our Amazing Spider-Man and bring Peter back to the never give up, heroic, admirable Peter who's mature, married, and preferably a father.

Cause much as I love Amazing Spider-Girl, just one book a month with the real Peter Parker (aka the one in ASG) is not enough.

At least when Spider-Girl's version of Peter retired, he had a damn good reason, and he went on being a hero and helping people, even if he no longer wore the costume.

But then that's the main reason I've been telling people to just give up on Amazing Spider-man and move over to Amazing Spider-Girl. It might not be the regular marvel Univers, but at least it has the real Peter Parker.

Posted by liliaeth on 2008-01-11 04:07:03
I would be remis in not pointing out
...that Dusty has been telling people on Comic Book Resources, that he's dropped Captain America, because of his unhappiness with Barnes wearing the suit.


Which leads me neatly back to a question for Tom...whatever happened to Daniel Way's proposed Winter Soldier miniseries?

Posted by Dave James on 2008-01-11 06:43:59
I just want this new direction to somehow, someway cause Venom to come back. The original Venom. Eddie and the symbiote, together again, smacking the Wallcrawler around for and issue and three-quarters before getting beaten with a sonic blaster. Make Mine Venom!

Posted by ljacone on 2008-01-11 06:45:04
I would be remis in not pointing out
...that Dave James needs to get some perspective, and I have not posted at CBR in months, and don't plan to anytime soon. I am not happy with Bucky wearing the suit. I think it's stupid and illogical. Christ, it's not like I'm the only person who feels that way... I definitely don't enjoy the series like I used to, and my opinion really shouldn't hurt the feelings of some comic reader who has absolutely no claim on me. Once again, just because Ed is my favorite writer, doesn't mean I have to blindly worship him like some mindless drone and suck up 24/7 when he does something I don't like. I'll leave that kind of stuff to Dave James! If you want to be such a voyeur, Dave, have a little patience, because as soon as Ed brings back Steve Rogers, I'll suck him dry for all the internet to see!


Posted by Dusty. on 2008-01-11 07:28:26
A comment about Marvel's Public Relations
I did want to respond to what somebody else said, as I do think Marvel (both editors and writers) need to work on this.

In other words, why is the Marvel motto "The costumer is always wrong"?

Posted by Dusty. on 2008-01-11 07:51:36
many levels of professai....professianihilsm.
1/One More Brand New Day :
I didn't read it.
I swear .
Neanmoins a deal with the devil is the most coherent idea ( AND YOU KNOW HOW MUCH I LIKE WANDA MAXIMOFF BY ALEX MALEEV ) I've found in your comics that I didn't had read for years.It's completly understandable coming from someone to always try to do his best , whose life had fallen apart; I wish I had read these because it will open a brand new horizon ( sorry) for the use of the character,what will make him do ( to have trade his soul yeah ? ) until other characters realize that Spidey is no more really
himself.Plus the fact that nobody really remember that he unmasked during Civil War is a pertinent use of magic, we'll have wonderful stories coming about free will, maybe some characters ( it can be Harry, but also MJ....) will be confront to choices they already made, will they do it again,will they do not....it's just...another way to deal with the alternates dimensions and universes, but from a brand different new ( I'm really sorry ) point of view.
2/ Space-strings :
Nobody can compete with Marc Silvestri's pin-ups in Uncanny, is that understood ?
If women have to save the world, let them be in armor instead of bikinis because I will not understand anything when I will see them in bikinis.
3/ Submissions and Professionnalism :
You maybe didn't know it but I'm a huge fan of Iron-Fist ( don't ask ), there's no one on earth more happy than me to see this character back and the wonderful stories who will be tell ( not by anyone, that's the point , but that is not about Matt Fraction here ), let me make you know that, despite I don't question your profes.---m, sometimes I do.
Taking the cover of Immortal Iron Fist by David Aja ( who he's doing a wonderful work, and a new beginning with fighting HYDRA is good to new readers to jump along ) the pose of Danny Rand is just anti anatomic. We can hardly think that David Aja use photos and had fall in the- first- trick- for-beginners-who-use-photos-for-drawing, which is that some things work on photos only, except if you REALLY RE-DRAW them, so we got a pose with a shortcut of the arm all in shadows ( maybe it's because the light was otherway but it helps a lot, uh ? ) and the rib cage ( who could be ROM's Space Knight rib cage duing to the direction of the body, or duing to a shoulder blade in need.
Professionnal ?
I don't have any problem with realism except when it's the purpose.
I know that comic-book are by definition unrealistic, sometimes it's even a style effect ( but what does that mean really, by the way ? ), that's makes me ask about when or what you choose that one thing is professional and another isn't; I don't know David Aja is not the only one to use photos and but you sure know that it is a touch who made his points each time ( Jae Lee, with respect ) so you think it will be good enough.
There is also the option that I didn't understand the avant-gardist stepping of David Aja and I will have to ask you to Pardon my French

Posted by notapotatoe on 2008-01-11 08:13:27
Brand New Why?
Hello Mr. Brevoort,

I read the OMD storyline because it was JMS swan song. It was emotionally intense and quite captivating. Everything up to the end was. Now as a writer I realize that this storyline has messed up Civil War Continuity. Norman Osborne is the head of the Thunderbolts team. Peter Parker is a wanted fugitve due to Civil War. He was the poster child for the Initiative. How will this be resolved? Spider Man is on New Avengers. They are wanted fugitives with Spider Man on the team. How willyou resolve this? Secret Invasion is months away, what did you do? I understand that Joe Quesada did not like the idea of spidey being married but a character has alife of it's own. if you didn't want him married so what! Allow the character to explore the darkness he was experiencing then find a way to pull him out. Or not. Spider Man is being returned to a teenage sort of vibe when he is a grown man. Treat him like one. I won't read BND. Not out of protest but because it's disrespectful to the great memories I have of the Spider Man I was watching grow up finally under JMS. Creatively you made a mistake. As an editor you've messed up years of continuity. These are your books how could you no see this?

Posted by warriorspirit97 on 2008-01-11 10:39:32
"Why do you choose to respond to the worst of all the comments left on the previous blog entry? Not any of the more reasoned arguments, that ONE message you chose is not representitive of our oppionions. MOST of us fans KNOW that BND is a subjectively,objectively, poor story is due to being built on a bad premise with dangling plot threads left. but you dont address those issues."

I'm in full agreement with this. And this is the PR spin that I've talked about previously. If someone is going to put words in your mouth, Tom, and call you names, I think most people are generally going to write those individuals off. How about addressing some of the more thoughtful comments?

Posted by PercussionMasta on 2008-01-11 12:44:34
Posts that should be responded to
Immature, poorly written posts should NEVER be responded to and certainly should not result in an entry in your BLOG. There are plenty of posters and critics who have problems with OMD and BMD that have written thoughtful, detailed articles and responses that deserve some detailed and thoughtful answers.

Unfortunately it would appear that all too many of you on the creative side are choosing to look at the vitriolic rants rather than
some of the more well thought out analyses coming from the audience. It's not surprising though as emotional, immature rants are probably outnumbering thoughtful critiques by at least 10 to 1.

Sadly this seems to evoke a lot of rather childish and unproductive backlash from creators every time it happens. When
you and Stephen Wacker choose to respond to the less disciplined posts of your readership, it tends to alienate the more reasoned ones as well.

All of us on both sides of this particular Maginot line would be best served by taking our anger and frustration and channeling it into something useful or at least neutral. Last I checked there were still plenty of bowling pins needing to be knocked over at an alley near you.

Posted by izzatrix on 2008-01-11 12:55:37
Well, I, for one really enjoyed this issue of the 40 year old virgin!

Posted by baxtos on 2008-01-11 14:03:40
Agreement
I'd like to chime in on the: "let's respond to worthwhile posts" issue. I completely agree. Obviously Mr. Dusty is now basking in the afterglow of having his fantasy come to life and being noticed, which can't possibly help anyone else in the whole world except for him.

It seems to me that responding to someone just because they can put together two words properly but still have the same "you're messing with my imaginary world by forcing me to realize that it's not reality!" attitude is counter-productive. Just like the response to SRS. It's the same, mindless fanboy whining, but with capitalization and punctuation.

I imagine (in the nicest way) that you, Tom, believe somewhere inside - it's only human - that the same stupid arguments spouted by someone who seems like they can use their brain are the perfect opportunity to quiet the internet riot or at least win a point against the tidal wave of hollow complaints. But, really, the people are yelling the same nonsense over and over because that's ALL they can think up. It all amounts to: "You got it wrong, cause I don't like it. Now appease me."

Don't get me wrong, in your place, I'd probably be tempted to do the exact same thing. Like I said, it's human. So please don't take offense.

In other words, please, more thoughtful discussions about how the comics could be better. As a matter of fact, I LOVE the discussion about women's portrayal of fashion and body type. That should be a blog. For the most part, the people who responded even did without trying to insult or put down one writer or another for being stupid or talentless. Sounds like gold to me!

Oh, and I did read in a Wizard article that the artist (I'm comic-ignorant despite my appearance here) for Mighty Avengers (I think...) was trying to give them different body shapes. In fact, Black Widow was specifically mentioned, along with Wasp. It makes a lot of sense to slim down certain body types and characters, as when it comes down to it all women really don't look the same outside of Hollywood.

Posted by PseudoSherlock on 2008-01-11 14:52:31
Great detective work, PseudoSherlock
You're an idiot if you think that I'm basking in the glow of being mentioned on a blog. I guess your life doesn't have a damn thing going for it, so that's the only mindset you would have if it was you.

Now, when Bendis announced on his forum that I was the most powerful man in comics, I masturbated for weeks!

If you bothered to read my apology to Tom, instead of repeating what somebody else had already said and wasting everybody's time, you could probably move on in your life and accomplish something, and once you accomplish significant things, you wouldn't be whining out of jealousy like you are above, because self confidence would take over.

Give it a try!


Posted by Dusty. on 2008-01-11 15:04:11
and thats why
you and Quesada must go.

Posted by Zesty on 2008-01-11 15:57:53
also...
you fail to mention why this is such a good comic. however if sales are good, does it matter? Where is the integrity? I'll tell you where it is. It's in the bank.

Posted by Zesty on 2008-01-11 16:00:45
Two things
First i would like to respond to the Clothing/portrayal of female characters issues.
I agree that there should be some new standards set with how the characters are drawn Male and female. Clothing seems to be kryptonite to most artists as they seem to stop at drawing a couple of lines to signify an article of clothing. There are many artists who do a good job in costuming, but it should be mandatory for Artists. I mean their job is story telling right? They should at least stay current on fashions and hairstyles as has been suggested already. Many artists seem to spend time cannibalizing pictures off of porn sites. This seems to have started becoming the norm around the early '90's when the Internet started to blow up.
If a character is supposed to be old then please make her look old and not like a "hot" chick with some lines on her face.
If you are interested in seeing a realistic portrayal of what the current wave of Comic women look like, go to www.youtube.com and type in Kelly Ripa's sexy pose. About 3/4 of the way through the video she will reenact something she saw on TV that illustrates this whole point clearly.
Bottom line, lets see some variety in the overall looks of characters. Especially female. Plus women or men for that matter who are super strong, aren't necessarily going to be buff. Imagine what they would have to lift and how much to give their muscles a workout. They cannot all afford Reed Richards gym.

The other thing of course is the current Spider-Man storyline. It blows.
I have been reading Spidey since 1970 and this has got to be the most ridiculous idea in that period of time. Besides the Clone saga.
I feel it was a poorly thought out stunt to retcon some recent storylines that didn't quite work out as hoped. And to bring back a character whose story has been told completely more times than it needed to be. Have these characters grow and Age albeit much slower than reality. Stop bringing back old characters and get the writers to really make an effort to move the character forward without going backwards.
Not that i think i am more skilled by any means, but here is my Variation on the story to get rid of M.J and Aunt May. in Bullet points.

*Everything is the same up to Aunt May dying in the Hospital.

*During the course of trying to save her, Kingpin finds out what Hospital she is at and Sends another Killer there. (he won't let spider-Man punk him.)

*Mary Jane catches the killer poisoning May's I.V. There is a struggle, M.J. is fatally wounded. The killer escapes.

*Peter returns to the Hospital to find M.J dying and Aunt May dead. M.J. dies in his arms.
Peter is devastated.
*Over the next couple of weeks Peter is going overboard against Criminals. Taking stupid risks And getting the attention of the Registration shock troops and S.H.I.E.L.D Who decide that he is to much of a public menace and decide to bring him in. This leads to Peter practically begging for someone to kill him. Peter is in a big downward spiral.

*At his lowest point Peter encounters someone who seems as down as him. Of course the guy offers to help Peter with his problem if Peter will only agree to help him. He says he can take the pain away. If he agrees they can shake on it. Of course this is Mephisto (since he was the Villain used.)

*They shake and everything goes black. The next page the Colors are bright and Peter is teaching his class. He remembers his Aunt who died 'years' ago but never knew MJ.

*Peter doesn't remember his newer powers or that he can make webs now, so he is using Web Shooters.

*Nobody ever associated with Peter remembers Aunt May

*We meet new cast members and love interests and even some people that peter knew in his youth who he fell out of touch with.(not Harry)

*Peter feels like he keeps failing as a hero because no matter how hard he tries things just continue to go bad. Give him more struggles.

*After a couple of years have an event happen that will bring about one of peters forgotten powers which will start a whole chain reaction that leads him to the conclusion that he sold his soul to Mephisto.
but why?

*Peter now has a quest. One that will eventually lead him to Mephisto and the memory of having a wife who is now dead.

*Peter struggles to get his soul back.

This way, as i see it would have done a couple of things that you set out to do.
1. Get rid of Aunt May and MJ without all of the mourning and divorce.

2. Given you a way to get rid of some continuity (for awhile at least) that you didn't like.

3. Allowed you to take Peter in any direction you would have wanted, While having the build up story as a way out in case this way doesn't work.

4.Given you at least a year or more of possible things that could happen Really put Spidey through the ringer..

5. Would have probably made for a more enjoyable and overall better story than what we got.

Just my thoughts.

BIGW1966

Posted by BIGW1966 on 2008-01-11 16:27:46
oops
I meant to say that Nobody associated with Peter remembers MJ.

By the way, what happens when Peter and MJ finally remember what they did? will they have moved on with their lives during this period maybe even remarrying or whatever only to remember each other and the fact that they are also still married to each other?

Posted by BIGW1966 on 2008-01-11 16:37:41
Zesty, if thats the way you feel
Why don't you wander over to DC's messageboards and spout that hate speech. There's people there calling for Bendis and Quesada to be killed - you're probably friends with them. This is a site for Marvel's FANS - which you and Dusty are obviously not. If you are criticising the editors of Marvel comics, you're criticising Marvel - simple as that.


Oh and Dusty - if you've been reading comics for 20-30 years - isn't it time you left them alone and let us real fans enjoy them.


To get this back on topic - I gave BND a shot, but it's just not my thing. Slott and Guggenheim just aren't big enough names for a book this big. But hey, thats just the way I feel. I put it back on the shelf and bought something else. I didn't run home screaming about how the books being ruined. Maybe one day, Spider-Man will get big name writers back on it - Warren Ellis, Jeph Loeb, Brian Vaughn...but for the moment, I'm prepared to accept that this is something Marvel is trying. But it's not for me. As long as you're putting out enough different books that I am prepared to try (Daniel Way writing Deadpool!) - then you'll have me as a fan.

Posted by Dave James on 2008-01-11 16:53:40
Dave, what sense were you trying to make?
"Oh and Dusty - if you've been reading comics for 20-30 years - isn't it time you left them alone and let us real fans enjoy them."

What is a "real" fan? Please, educate the world!

And the rest of you need to lay off Tom. I insulted his integrity and he put me in my place and I apologized, but he was speaking in general about the subject. I happen to agree with him and owned up to my mistake, so if anybody thinks that getting made to look like an !&%**&@@$ in front of everyone is something I should be gushing about and basking in the attention over, you're pretty warped.

Tom is somebody that I respect and admire, and I'm glad he basically put all of us (not just me, for those who couldn't grasp the point) on notice that he expects more from us, and doesn't want that kind of crap happening on his blog. He devotes a lot of time doing this for NO MONEY, and it was a good move on his part to step on that kind of thing like he did, and I'm still ashamed of myself. It definitely won't happen again from me, and I can only hope the rest of you are a bit smarter than I was.

Posted by Dusty. on 2008-01-11 17:31:08
Well, it'd never happen to any of us
Because none of us are retarded enough to criticise Marvel editors on a Marvel website.

Posted by Dave James on 2008-01-11 17:45:30
You're plenty retarded, Dave
Proof:

"Oh and Dusty - if you've been reading comics for 20-30 years - isn't it time you left them alone and let us real fans enjoy them."
- Dave the retard

You show it everytime you try to make a point.

Posted by Dusty. on 2008-01-11 18:21:07
Dusty,
you said "And the rest of you need to lay off Tom..."

What, you are the only irate idiot with a computer and an internet connection?
My goodness, you are a complete tool. Don't come spread feces and then tell everyone else what they can and can't do.

I think Dave James has exposed you for who you are. Enjoy your big "SCORE!" today and then fade away.

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2008-01-11 21:24:50
Dave James...
"Because none of us are retarded enough to criticise Marvel editors on a Marvel website."
Why is that so wrong? It's okay to criticise a writer on their own site. They're all adults, and it's JUST WORDS. What is it gonna do? So, basically, Dave James, we can't voice our opinions on Marvel.com now, because if we criticise them on their site, wemight hurt their feelings? Notice how we post COMMENTS. Guess what comments are, for the most part? OPINIONS. So, please, be quiet. We can voice our opinions, and if you don't like it, then don't READ THEM.

Posted by Venomfan1995 on 2008-01-11 22:18:43
30yrs
how the can you forget the last 30 yrs and everything that spiderman means and stand for they have total messed up the comic and all that he is about and is all about . he has just told all of the readers that have been getting spider for the last 25yrs or so to go to hell .

Posted by hellspidey on 2008-01-11 23:53:13
my omd/bnd comment
my comment on this whole OMD and BND thing is this.

we were told that the spidey unmasking was gonna be a long running thing, and now its clear that it was created with a plan to reverse it already in effect. so why should i trust that anything coming out now will mean anything in a lil while.

i'm sad to see the old spidey go, juggling the things spidey did is what made him seem like a hero. no one i know whose petes age still has all their single highschool buddies around (no one worth writing about atleast). and the whole better stories with a single spidey excuse, what about daredevil or luke cage, they aren't in family based books like the ff, but being married hasn't hurt their stories, the current daredevil story where matts saving his wife from mr. fear is really good.

i'm not cancelling my subs to amazing, mostly because part of me wants to see how this plays out, and the other part of me doesn't wanna screw my favorite comic shop on books i have previously ordered. but 3 issues a month at 3.99 of an old moochy peter parker isn't gonna hold my attention for long.

that scene in silver surfer requiem with spidey and mj was one of the sweetest moments in comics ever, and i know it was a marvel knights book and out of continuity, but i thought it summed him up well. too bad he's gone

i like my heroes to be like heroes when they are out of the costume too. like cap was.

Posted by scarecr0w13 on 2008-01-12 00:12:30
Open Letter
"That's all the cloud cover. This is a break-up, a funeral for something that you loved. It's grief and pain, funneled into rage. "

I'll give you this, Tom. You have an eloquence to your writing, and can infuse it with passion.

I am afraid I have to disagree with your reasoning, though. If there is "grief" over the passing of what was loved, it was because it was a timely and untragic taking of a life, not a natural end.

I can believe that some of the staff at Marvel has had a problem with the marriage of Pete/MJ. Consider things like the Clone Sage, the number of times MJ has been kidnapped, and, oh...just about a gazillion other little things over the years. Still, it's hard to like something that is subjected to so many hackneyed plots and such.

The fans are not against change, per se, but look at how many changes have been made that got changed back because the idea has always been to go "back to the basics" with Spider-man...but that seems to be defined by the editorial staff at Marvel as being "single, quasi-employed, student, living with his Aunt". It is the editorial staff at Marvel that seems resistant to change.

That is simply irresponsible as a storyteller. There are many ways the marriage could have been ended without having to resort to a Dues ex Machina solution. As an editor yourself, I find it hard to believe that you would honestly look at that as a plot device and say "this is acceptable". I am quite certain that if an unsolicited manuscript came in with a similar suggestion in resolution that you would reject it, and rightly so!

This, unfortunately, will color the perception of any and all Spider-Man books to the fans. Many are going to dislike it regardless of any technical skill that may be inherent in the book, but because it is simply a rehashing of places Spider-Man has been before.

True character development involves evolution and change....and "back to the basics" should only mean to get back into the spirit that made the book popular in the first place...NOT simply run over variations on the same events of yesteryear.

As a reader, I understand that...and as an editor, I know you are not completely blind to what I am saying here. Thank you for your attention.


Posted by Facetious Sage on 2008-01-12 02:33:12
Insomnia
heh.....shows that I certainly wouldn't be a good editor having let this goof slip through:

"it was because it was a timely and untragic taking of a life, not a natural end. "

Obviously that should read, "it was because it was an untimely and tragic taking of a life...."

(crawls into hole and dies of embarrasment)

Posted by Facetious Sage on 2008-01-12 03:49:37
BND = Brand New Disappointment
Good morning Mr. Brevroot,

I haven't had a chance to write to you prior to today because I've been working my tail off all week. I've been chomping at the bit, however, to do so. I'm 37 years old and learned to read when I was 7 through the pages of Amazing Spider-Man. As a child, I refused to read anything but spider-man, so my parents complied. I have read every issue of ASM and have subsequently collected every issue, including all variant covers, price variants, etc., along with several other Marvel titles. The last time I was this upset with Marvel was when you started ASM volume II after issue 441. I was really irritated by that move and was delighted when you went back to the original numbering at issue 500. The clone thing pissed me off too, but not as much. The ASM book has been great ever since...until now. Erasing 20 years of continuity is something I sincerely hope will be temporary. I feel somewhat betrayed by what Marvel has done with this book. I will continue to read and collect Marvel comics, but I really hope what's happening is BND is a ruse.

By the way, can you please try to lay off the variant covers for a bit? My God, they get expensive and are a pain in the butt to get at times. Put out the variants when there's a good reason, such as at a 50 or 100 issue mark, at the end of a long plot run or at an anniversary! It seems like you guys are banging them out every other issue...special cover here, white cover variant there, special Spider-Pig variant etc...please! Give us a break. Right now for me, it's hard enough to just accept what you've done to Spider-Man and pay for gas and fuel oil! Ouch...BND is a kick in the nuts! Thanks for listening.

Posted by shaolin2146 on 2008-01-12 06:11:33
Venom Fan
I simply believe that it is not our place - and bordering on hate speech - to criticise Marvel comics and their editors and creators - on a Marvel messageboard. You want to bash Marvel - go to Newsarama - Brady has made a business of it. But here should be for the discussion of Marvel comics. And even if I was to criticise Marvel - it would be along the lines of "If Warren Ellis is saying on his website that he can't think of a Marvel project to do - it's the editors job to FIND HIM one", or "Give Daniel Way some more work"

But to criticise a comic because you don't like the circumstances it came out? Not here

Posted by Dave James on 2008-01-12 07:05:06
Two more things
Facetious Sage is correct and even echoes my sentiment about the characters needing to grow and not continually rehash variations of the old stories or plots. As a long time buyer, i feel more disappointment and loss at having spent my money on something that i have read before. Or worse having spent my money on something that feels like a hackneyed and cheap device used to destroy all that has come before.
I was impressed with Marvels outing Peter in public. That was something that opened possibilities for the character and even played to the characters history. Not to mention it brought Marvel some much needed free publicity.
Now in light of this current storyline it seems like the whole Unmasking was just a stunt also to boost sales of Civil War. a book that didn't need the extra help.

Now this is for Dave James; I don't know anything about you, and this is not an attack on you but...you need to just stop now.
To make the statement that we should not critisize Marvel books or the people who made them on a Marvel website is not a statement bordering on ignorance, it is a statement that has completely jumped the fence.

Mr. Brevoort is a very good editor and is a boon to the Comics Industry in general.
He has a public blog to talk about topics that he is involved with. If it was not open for comments, if it wasn't open for critique, then none of us would be able to leave these posts. These posts are critiques. hey are the opinions of the readers. The fans. How is a company of this size to know if the people are really liking what they are doing?

The key is to maintain a level of respect and decorum when giving our responses.

I am a professional Artist. If someone dislikes something that i did, I would rather hear it from them instead of finding out on some 3rd party website where i cannot directly respond or even defend my decisions.
Basically your statement was very nieve. you are actually doing this Blog more of a disservice by continuing your ridiculous time wasting argument with this guy Dusty. He even admitted to being wrong. That is something you don't see much on the anonymous web.

Remember this, Truth opens the door for actual change.
Blowing smoke up someones backside because you won't be honest with them just keeps them in a continual cycle towards failure.

Thanks for the Blog Tom. Its nice to know that there is a place where you can actually comment directly to the people i give a lot of my money to.

BIGW1966

Posted by BIGW1966 on 2008-01-12 09:11:16
One more thing...
Tom,

Are you a fan of Movies? I ask this because it is pertinent. Many people are getting upset with Hollywood because they spend all of their time making sequel's or remakes of Movies. This includes movie's that came out within the last decade.
This continual trend in Hollywood shows that they are afraid to try new things because they might fail. Yes i understand that there are million's of dollars at stake, but how can you achieve true success without risk? Movies are making less money at the theaters for a number of reasons, the main ones however are the rising cost of going to the movies, and the tired rehashed garbage they keep trying to reinvent. People see this and do not want it.
Marvel seems to be following this trend by constantly taking their characters backwards.

I have come to the conclusion that this line of thought along with the outlook that every comic has to be written like its the readers first Comic is doing more to stifle creativity than it is to bring in new readers and respect long time readers.
Iron Man is the only character that had true growth and change happen to him in the last couple of years. Hulk did also, but now he seems to be turning into Hannibal Lector.
Maybe a move to just making sure the stories are everything they can be as your first step would do your sales better. If a story is compelling enough to capture a reader, then there is a very good chance that the reader will go in search of your archives. (read Trades or Graphic Novels)
I dislike Manga for the most part, but one thing they rarely do is travel in a circle. They tend to go in a straight line filled with many twists.

Marvels books need to do that.

Posted by BIGW1966 on 2008-01-12 09:27:38
"This is a site for Marvel's FANS "
Exactly, If i wasnt a fan, if I didnt care, I wouldnt have said the things I did.

Posted by Zesty on 2008-01-12 09:37:03
Whats Ultimate for then?
I really don't think whether BND is a good comic has anything to do with peoples disappointment over the events. What really is the problem is that over the Years brave decisions were made with Spider Man, such as the Marriage or the Unmasking and this just seems like a cowards way out, I think comics need to change and grow otherwise you start to lose any connection to the characters, I mean why should we care what happens when it can just be undone. I did enjoy the first issue of BND but more in the same way as you might enjoy a Marvel Adventures story or as in my case when you start reading the Ultimate version for the first time.

The Argument that there are stories that can't be told with MJ and Peter married also seems insufficient, I mean what is the Ultimate Line for then, I thought the whole point was the opportunity to start again without all the backstory that had built up. I just brought myself to read the ultimate version recently, which I had avoided due to lack of time, and the creation of this new status Quo just feels like another version of those comics. For me however good the new comics are they will always feel like an alternate Universe like Ultimate rather than the Real Spiderman, which may not stop me reading them but certainly takes away something special that Spiderman had meant.

Posted by Furbine56 on 2008-01-12 09:52:56
Tom,

“And I really do appreciate your concern for my reputation. But given that "Avengers: Disassembled" completely destroyed the Avengers franchise, CIVIL WAR was the worst comic book known to man and the Death of Captain America was an abomination, I think my instincts in this area are reasonably sound.”

I can appreciate that you’re bothered by people claiming that “Marvel staff think this sucks too, they’re just hiding it to keep from getting fired.” At the same time, the attitude that you’re putting forward here is, to be blunt, a bit offensive. Fans are fickle and afraid of change. Comic book creators are forced to incorporate enough change to keep the books interesting without betraying what it is about those books that have made them successful. I can appreciate that this is a tough job. But to simply assume that fan criticism of major plot changes is B.S. because fans are critical of ALL major plot changes is really, really arrogant.

“I mean, I know you guys are intelligent, and you're all well-versed enough in how comic book universes work to be able to figure out simple things like the fact that Norman Osborn doesn't remember who Spider-Man is now doesn't have any effect on him throwing Gwen Stacy off a bridge years ago (and just how many times has Norman forgotten that Pete was Spidey and that he was the Goblin over the years?)”

OK, back up the truck for a second: how many of those involved the devil – the freaking devil – changing the entire universe to forget about a multitude of events that were, until a few weeks ago, canonical for Marvel? This is confusing. Confusing is OK, but don’t act like some of us are slow if we don’t understand this.

“I said it yesterday, and I'll say it again today: AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #546 is a good comic book. I don't say that because I have to, I don't say it because I'm "spinning"—I say it because, as far as I'm concerned, it's true. And like with any other book my office puts out, I don't see any need to debate its merits—the proof is in the book.”

That’s just silly. Don’t belittle our opinions when you’re unwilling to back up your own.

TB: “No, no, I swear, this is a really great book.”
Fans: “Sure, we hate every major change, have no memory about it, and don’t like this one, but what’s so great about this book?!?”
TB: “It’s great because it’s really, really great. Trust me, you’re always wrong.”

It’d be unreasonable for us to ask you to list every single “great” aspect of this book. But it’s equally unreasonable for you to ask us to cease all criticism of the book “just because.” There are some great things about this book. I’ll differ from a lot of Marvel fans and say that I actually found a lot of great things about this book. But I want to hear you back up your opinion, since you think that we’re obliged to put so much stake in it.

I realize that you’re probably not going to read this, much less respond to it. You’re busy, that’s fine. But “theazor” has made an excellent point when s/he says:

“While I don't disagree that there is something cool in your company's ability to elicit emotional reactions from readers, I'd say that OMD has destroyed your ability to do that in the future. How is anyone going to get emotionally invested in a character that they know is going nowhere?”

Props for that; I’m genuinely curious to see a response.

Posted by jlhollwitz on 2008-01-12 10:03:35
bigdaddyhub2
"Enjoy your big "SCORE!" today and then fade away."

The "score" was for Tom, not for me. I kinda thought that was clear by the apology coming directly after...

As much as it bothers you, I'm a Marvel comics fanboy, and have been since about 1978. (I celebrate my 30th anniversary in the fold this year!) No matter what facet of life, including frivolous ventures like reading funny books, there is no substitute for experience. Do you have any idea how many times myself and other veteran readers have seen story directions in books that we collected that we were very skeptical of, and after giving it a chance with the "I'll let the story play out" mindset, we found out that it did indeed suck like we thought it would and we ended up paying money and wasting time on something we waited to like but never did?

I see editors and writers using this defense. "Just wait until the story plays out. It's all part of a story. Have some faith." I see many readers who are like so many sheep grazing in the fields on a Sunday morning, and there are others who just don't know any better, because they are new to comics, but we've been through the "wait and see" enough times in our comic reading "careers", so it's a bit much to ask of us.

Tom mentioned some directional changes. When Avengers was disassembled and replaced by New Avengers, I thought it was incredibly stupid for Wolverine and Spider-Man to be with that group. I still do, and never moreso. Spidey's loner status was as essential to the character as the secret identity. Many of us complained about the unmasking, Marvel did it anyway.

Not only did the move of putting them in the series hurt the Avengers (I don't think that can be considered in the league of the best Avengers stuff,) but look at how things have went for Spider-Man and Wolverine ever since then. People are kinda sick of them, and they ain't dominating the sales charts, that's for sure. New Avengers has really done serious damage to both of them. Seriously, take a real close look at what New Avengers has meant to both characters, and then tell me how that has worked out. I definitely trusted my instincts that it wasn't a good idea (just like the unmasking wasn't), and that's exactly how it's played out.

Mighty Avengers and Avengers: Initiative have since spawned, but I'd trade all that for the best Avengers periods, when the team didn't need illogical plot devices for their premise. Illogical for a comic book is hard to do, but Marvel keeps doing it with Spider-Man, and then are wondering why people keep giving up or complaining loudly. The clone saga, joining the Avengers and moving into Stark tower, Sins Past, the unmasking, One More Day... These are all things that many readers balked at, Marvel (and the sheep) told us that we were wrong, and to take the "wait and see" approach. How'd that work out? How was Chapter One, The Other, and Sins Past?

There comes a point when a pattern has got to be noticed, even by the dumbest of readers, so seriously, is the reaction really that surprising? My track record on quickly identifying bad comic ideas is pretty spot on, and that's what the entire premise for BND is, and that collapses everything. There is just no way around the premise if you have any standards or half a brain. I can sacrifice using my brain when reading Thunderbolts, but definitely not with Spider-Man.

Civil War was terrible. The execution of it was an embarrassment to everybody involved. The same story could have been done without the heroes acting like a bunch of immature idiots, shooting to kill their closest friends, employing killers of the most powerful levels to go after their friends, sucker punching eachother, and creating a clone of Thor. It also didn't help that Captain America was portrayed as the dumb American cowboy by a writer who's jealous of George Bush.

The Death of Captain America is dragging, and Bucky becoming the new Cap is complete garbage. Another "brilliant" Mark Millar idea that was listened to. ( I'd love to see Millar and Geoff Johns switch places! ) This hasn't played out, but allow me to call this one. It will NOT be remembered as being as good as the series was with Steve Rogers in the Cap role. What's the point?

I did kinda get a "sales equals quality" vibe from Tom when he was mentioning those things, and said "But I know a good comic book when I see one. And I'll count on the readership as a whole over time to prove this out." Tom, please reconsider that mindset, if you meant the "number" of readers, which it sounded like you meant.

It's not like Marvel isn't doing great things now, though. The production values have never been better, the collections are great (although I wish old material was available with modern coloring applied, like Dark Horse does with Conan's old reprints!), and the talent is about as good as it's ever been. It's a cohesive universe again. Thor's back with a great series, Daredevil rocks, the Twelve is one of the most interesting new things I've seen decades (although it, along with Bucky's return, kinda craps all over the uniqueness of Steve Rogers and his "man out of time" schtick), the Hulk is the best it's been in YEARS, Fantastic Four will have the best art it's had in a long time, and Secret Invasion's concept is genius! Lot's a great things.

BND just isn't one of them, but I'll tell you what I will do. Since Tom believes that it's a quality comic, I'm going to read it a second time sometime today and give it another chance.

Posted by Dusty. on 2008-01-12 11:09:50
Venomfan1995
I agree with you! I do think we should be able critique, and I am guessing the guys here believe that as well. I also think, as you do, that we should also be adults and not use personal attacks or insults in that.

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2008-01-12 13:18:11
Question: Do the powers that be consider Mephisto to be consider Mephisto to be a "hero"?
(if the answer is "No" then...)
Second Question: Do the powers that be consider Mephisto's change to Spider-Man's life to be an improvement?

Posted by Big Thunder on 2008-01-12 14:10:13
Huh?
Did I hiccup? There was only supposed to be one "...consider Mephisto to be..." in the my first question.

Posted by Big Thunder on 2008-01-12 14:12:12
My posts?
So uh... it seems that two of my posts have been deleted from this thread. Why was that? Was there something offensive contained within them? I don't think there was.
To what happened to them?

BIGW1966

Posted by BIGW1966 on 2008-01-12 15:52:09
Heart breaking...
I've read Amazing Spider-man 546 and I have to say that I thought it was very enjoyable to read. It was very well written and the artwork looks great matching up very well with the character(s).

With THAT said (and before anyone scoffs at me)...

This new direction that Marvel comics has gone with a character that I've truly enjoyed and could relate to (sans that whole clinging to walls, web-shooting, etc.) has probably been the most heartbreaking thing for me with in the past few months. I've grown up reading comics all my life (since I was about 8 years old and now coming up on my 25th birthday - gives ya an idea as far as timeframes go) and found that between the two main companies, Marvel always seem to take good strides to be consistent with their characters, even thru multiple books, within the Marvel Universe, while DC just sort of said “awww, to hell with what the readers want. They’ll come back for more as long as we throw Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman in there somewhere”. But it now seems that Marvel has taken that attitude with their “flagship” character and I don’t understand why.

I’m not saying that change isn’t good or can’t be good in time, but what the creators are now saying to me is that I’m to forget the past and accept this as “the way things are”. This is after some phenomenal stories have already come down the line over the past few years that have truly made Peter Parker, and the Marvel Universe in general, just that much more interesting to observe and really feel apart of.

I never really cared that J. Michael Straczynski was writing “Amazing Spider-Man”, nor any other writer or artist for that matter. What I’ve always asked (and always expected) was that whoever was working with the character, that they treat it with respect and put their best foot forward and this “new, exciting direction” is really just a lazy attempt to make one last, “hold-your-breathe” story of what had been an extremely amazing run of a writer.

I very rarely complain and even get annoyed with the “fanboy” complaints of “don’t change the costume” or “clones again?” or whatever else they complain about when the status quo is changed. I feel that it’s those “little” shake-ups (and big ones – Civil War’s big reveal) that occur that help keep Peter Parker (and all comic characters) interesting and relevant and, for good or bad, make the characters even more rich and exciting.

This, however, is not one of those moments.

Mephisto said in Sensational Spider-Man 41, part 3 of 4 of the “One More Day” story arc:

“You will not consciously remember this bargain, or this moment, or the life you lived to this point. But there will be a very small part of your soul that WILL remember, that WILL know what you lost. And my joy will be in listening to that part of your soul screaming throughout eternity.”

Ok, so maybe I would live for eternity but I can say that reading Amazing Spider-Man 546 was probably the worst read of my life, knowing what’s happened, not seeing the above reflected at all in the book (though maybe it’s a bit early), worrying about how this single change pretty much changes the ENTIRE Marvel Universe and all the other ongoing series that I’ve come to enjoy (or IF Marvel will be consistent with their universe’s continuity as in the past or not), and at this point, JSM has left me with this feeling of MY soul screaming at the pages, not the characters. Maybe that was the goal. It was a poor choice in goals.

Change for character growth, change for story growth, heck, change for fun sake is always good no matter what ANYONE says because that’s what makes the character more relevant; more personal to me. It can give the story that “wtf!” moment or that “I KNEW IT” or that emotional, stuffed-up moment and that’s what makes reading this stories (especially of late) so gratifying.

I feel this was change to cater to a “changing-of-the-guard” and that is NOT a good enough reason for me and I am truly ashamed of the people at Marvel comics for allowing this to happen.

I have every intention of continuing to read Marvel comics, and especially “Amazing Spider-Man” because I’ve grown up with the character of Peter Parker and feel very connected to him, like a good friend; a best friend. And I will continue because, like a lot of stories, characters, etc., in comics, nothing is permanent and I don’t expect this to be either.

I just felt that everyone else got to put his or her two cents in, why not mine?

And maybe no one will listen at all…



Posted by felluponthieves on 2008-01-12 16:25:34
Give Him A Break
If he felt the need to respond to the post, there isn't anything wrong with that. I think that much like the other examples you posted, this needed to be done. It may not be well received initially, but once people see how the books and characters are set afterward, they will understand. While I am a huge X-Men fan (they are my absolute favorite), I have much love for Spidey as well. The X-Men ruled the charts for decades, and now the Avengers are king. Spider-Man should be a top 10 selling title every month. PERIOD. There was nothing wrong with JMS' run, or any other creator's run; in fact, most were great. That doesn't mean they can't be better. The "if it isn't broke, don't fix it" argument is a terrible one. I would be more concerned if you guys said that the books can get no better than they are now. Spider-Man is one of the most recognizable icons in pop culture. He has made BILLIONS of dollars in the movies. How can he not have one of, if not the premiere superhero comic book on the stands. Everyone should want to read the character. Somewhere along the way through 40+ years, the character aged. He became an authority figure, and became less relatable. I'm not going to say that this will fix all those problems, because only time will tell, but I do think it is a step in the right direction.

Posted by wolviebeserker on 2008-01-12 16:47:46
I still wanna know...
How are they justifying Spider-Man being a part of the New Avengers? Bad storytelling isn't the answer, because Marvel is above bad storytelling. Did Bendis make a deal with the devil, too, so sales didn't drop like a rock on HIS book?

Let's face it, this thing is just a big mess from top to bottom.

Posted by Dusty. on 2008-01-12 18:33:59
Its magic

Posted by Zesty on 2008-01-12 21:56:03
Tom can Joe stop doing interviews
Every time I see a Joe Quesada interview he tends to come off condescending to the fan base and has this f you type attitude. The man really needs someone to do P.R. for Marvel while he stays silent. His interviews tend to infuriate already mad fans more than anything.

Posted by mre2u on 2008-01-13 00:33:11
i agree that marvel artists really should do something about the unrealistic and in some cases borderline pornographic poses and attires that they put the female charecters in.

as for the whole bnd thing meh i havent read spidey in a couple years so i see no reason to give this new direction a go, the new cap america looks intriguing though...

Posted by broken serenity on 2008-01-13 08:07:29
right
i only read your message and not all of the replys that everyone had given.
Im a long time Marvel fan from the netherlands so im mostly not that quick to reply for various resons (one is my spelling sorry if i spel a few things wrong)
your right that no one has right to call you al liar if you say that you think that Amazing Spiderman #546 was a good comic we should all belief that.
and i think your right! it was a good comic but i dont think it was a good comic for the Spiderman we all know and loved. this would have workt as some soort of flashback or something because the way the conversations went between the characters it feld like we were back in the 70's. not just because Harry is back but the interaction between him and every one els. they were talking like the "cool cats"they were then and we are living in the now.
this comic really gives you a feel that your reading a comic from the past. and mostly that is fun if you know it all happens in the past. I know that Marvel tryed to get the old feeling back for Spidey but that old feeling only workt so well with Spiderman when he was a lot younger.
im still hoping for a quick return to the old Spiderman. But i will keep on reeding this one because im to big of a fan

Posted by silviano on 2008-01-13 09:18:31
Let me add my 2 cents
We may need a blogs councilor for the forums now, things are getting hot. You know Tom I will be honest with you first I would never call you a chump because the very fact is I don’t know you …period. Second I don’t think its in my place to tell you are wrong because its your opinion really and you have that right, also I think the very fact that you DO WORK at Marvel gives you a credibility that does puts you ahead of the line when it comes to advise on Marvels titles. Your in the trenches, behind the scenes, your in the land of OZ working with the wizard so I agree with your posting and people should be boot out for vulgarity.

After reading your post you might be taking things from a professional employee stand point to a more personal level with the bloggers, and I hope that’s not the case because you seem like a good guy and I think your doing a great deed for Marvel by talking to there fans and getting feedback.

You know I’ve been reading Marvel comics for about 28 years and I’m am as loyal as they get , so I can appreciate your position there at Marvel, Im not sure if that counts for anything but I think I will check out that Spiderman #546 this week. I hope all is well.


Posted by terciera on 2008-01-13 11:34:07
Questions
1. Did Secret War happen? (the new one, not the 80s version) If so how was it changed in light of nobody remembering?

2. Did Peter get Mary Jane pregnant and not marry her, if everything happened, but they just done remember it?

3. Since nobody remembers what happened in civil war, who do they think came on the news and said he was opposing the war in Civil War in Amazing Spider-man?

4. How has Harry and Norman's relationship been and what has taken place while they where in Europe?

5. Did Peter still live in Aveneger's Tower with MJ, if so, How if nobody remembers him and who do they think lived there? If not did he live with his aunt the entire time?

6. Did Jravis forget about Aunt May?

7. Did Peter and Morloun fight and Peter never realize he had the Spider Totem?

8. Why would Iron Man give a suit to a person he did not know? And in The Intiative, would the people wearing Spider-man's old suit think its funny he made this suit for just somebody in a mask?

9. Did Doctor Strange forget about Peter being in the Center of a mystical Web?

10. Can we discount all the times Matt Murdock and Peter met over the years?


Posted by jefseg77 on 2008-01-13 20:01:37
marvel doesn't get it
I've said before that Marvel has no clue and I wanted to take the time to explain what I meant.


JQ and the editors/writers at Marvel have no clue as to what's been wrong with Spider-man.
I assume that the recent changes they've made to the character have been because have gone down.

Well let me make this as clear as I can,,....Dear JQ, If SM's popularity or his comics sales have in fact gone down, the fault does not lie with Spider-man.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH SPIDER-MAN.
HE DOES NOT NEED TO BE FIXED, CHANGED, OR REVAMPED.
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH HIS COSTUME, HIS POWERS, HIS ATTITUDE, HIS SUPPORTING CAST, HIS ROGUES GALLERY, OR ANY OF THE OTHER SPIDER-MAN MYTHOS WHICH HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED OVER THE PAST 40 YEARS.

If sales are down, it is because of your TREATMENT of the character.
perhaps with the intention of making him "younger" you turned Spider-man into the joke, the weakling, the jerk nobody wants to be around, and the "moron" of the MU. You made him into a weak willed puppy who follows Tony Stark and Cap around like they were his daddy.
You've made him into the weak link of the Avengers. The guy who needs rescuing.

THOSE are the reasons why Spider-man's popularity/sales may be down.

are you surprised? How can you possibly expect anyone to love a character who is so poorly regarded in the MU that even Villains call him an "annoying moron".
In comic Book after comic book Spider-man is portrayed as the lowest of the low. The bottom of the barrel when it comes to Superheroes.
In the pages of The Avengers, Falcon, surrounded by a hundred other Superheroes asks "why are YOU even here?".
In the pages of the new Avengers he is not only incompetent, but annoying and worthless to his teammates. Even Spider-WOMAN is written with a higher regard.
In the pages of his own mag Wolverine humiliates him and treats him like a noob who doesn't yet belong in the big leagues, while kicking his arse.
in the pages of MTU, he is told "nobody likes you"
in the pages of his own mag even Electro says "you really ARE an idiotic MORON". The Black Cat generates more fear and respect from his foes than HE does.
in the pages of Civil War, he follows Tony around like a lost puppy, and later offers to carry Cap's lunch. "no ,..really"
and so on and so on.
For some reason, a decision was made ( I can only assume by JQ as this was evident in so many different books) to turn Spider-man, THE FLAGSHIP hero of the Marvel Universe into the most annoying, biggest waste of time, NOOB of the MU.

Are you really surprised people aren't turned on by Spider-man?

The sad truth is that this characterization of Spider-man could not be further from the truth.

No, SPider-man does not need fixing. He did not need a new costume, new powers, nor for his marriage to be erased.

Just in case you still don't understand what' you've been doing wrong consider the following.

1) Spider-man is the FLAGSHIP hero of the MU. The guy who's movies grossed TWICE as much the next guy. This makes him special. Not the strongest, not the fastest but the GREATEST, the best the MU has to offer. The Michael Jordan or Mohammed Ali of the Superhero world if you will. He should be treated as such.

2) Spider-man's combination of powers makes him one of the most dangerous and effective fighters in the MU. Only level 100 superheroes/villains present a real threat to SM. Though he is far from being the strongest or the fastest, the combination of his Speed, strength, web, skill, and SPIDER-SENSE makes him lethal to anyone but class 100.

3) Spider-man is not in the same strength class as Human level heroes. THE DIFFERENCE IN STRENGTH BETWEEN SPIDER-MAN AND GUYS LIKE DD, WOLVERINE, CAP, IRON FIST,etc etc IS GREATER THAN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HULK AND SPIDER-MAN. Having battles where blows are traded back and forth between SM and those guys is as silly as having Spider-man trade blows with the Hulk. PLEASE stop treating him like a human. The guy lifts TEN TONS, mooves fast enough to dodge bullets, and has a spider-sense which tells him to move BEFORE the bullet is even fired. How about if we started elevating Spider-man to his actual potential. It was once stated that given his powers as a teen, Sm could grow to become very powerful as an adult. How about treating him as such. Not by expanding his powers but rather by maximizing the powers he ALREADY HAS. If I see another comic wher DD, or Elektra, or Black Cat punches SM out I will lose it.

4)Spider-man has earned the respect of every character in the MU. He has either helped or defeated most of the heroes in the MU. He has faced and beaten most of the villains as well. He has beaten heavy weights like Firelord, Namor, the FF, and many others. PLEASE STOP TREATING HIM LIKE A NOOB who has no clue as to what's going on. If Wolverine tells SM to shut up and follow him one more time I will just about lose it. Does he do that in BND?

5)in the beginning Spider-man kicked @$$ and took names. He was A guy with a quick temper, ready to take down any and all opponents. He would beat down on his enemies. HE is the best at what he does. Give him that respect .

6) Spider-man is no NOOB. He hasn't been since the first 10 issues of Amazing Fantasy/Spider-man. He has met, fought, helped, practically EVERYONE in the MU. He has saved the universe at least once and participated in many such events. He is not easily impressed. Please stop writing him as if he has no clue.


Imagine for a second a comic book series which treated SM according to these FACTS rather than the treatment he has been receiving.

Spider-man does not need fixing. He does not need to be changed or revamped. He just needs a creative teams who understands who he is and treats him accordingly.


Posted by horatiorome on 2008-01-14 00:06:21